As for the current discussion, however, I am not sure how profit (or lack of profit -- call it margin) relates to finding ways to reduce registration fees. For example, you can make a toy in your company for 50 cents and sell it for $1.50 and make a margin of $1. On the other hand you can produce that same toy for say $5 and sell for $6 and make the same margin per toy. Question is whether you will have more customers (therefore larger cumulative margin) with the first option or the second one. Which one responds to the needs of your company? Not-for-profits work the same way. However, for them there is no left-over funds called "profit". In fact, the larger population of attendees in conferences, the lower the "margin" since the "total cost" does not change.
I think cutting registration fees warrants the discussions/suggestions that has been going on.
Regards,
Kazem Sohraby
-----Original Message-----
From: tccc-bounces@lists.cs.columbia.edu [mailto:tccc-bounces@lists.cs.columbia.edu] On Behalf Of habib@ccny.cuny.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 11:37 AM
To: Celia Desmond; obazan@ee.ryerson.ca; 'Joe Touch'
Cc: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: [Tccc] Cost of attendance from developing countries / in general
I re-iterate the facts: Conferences make profit, The IEEE makes profit. I did not comment on how the revenues is spent. I do not know where this statement about commenting on "where the money is going" is coming from, please check the facts before making statements.
Prof. Ibrahim Habib
---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 09:24:51 -0500
>From: "Celia Desmond" <c.desmond@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: RE: [Tccc] Cost of attendance from developing countries / in general
>To: <habib@ccny.cuny.edu>,<obazan@ee.ryerson.ca>,"'Joe Touch'" <touch@ISI.EDU>
>Cc: <tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu>
>
>I am not sure where the impressions in this email came from, but I suggest
>that you might want to get some facts before making definitive statements.
>
>First, IEEE is Not-for-profit, and they do not make profit.
>
>IEEE does try to make a surplus of 20% on conferences whenever possible,
>because the membership dues do not cover the costs of the basic member
>services (magazines, etc) and the cost of these has to come from somewhere.
>In addition, IEEE and specifically ComSoc covers many additional benefits,
>such as student travel grants, awards, lecture tours, etc. because they DO
>care about helping people to become involved in the profession. The costs of
>these also come from any surplus from conferences or publications.
>
>In this case the conferences are ComSoc, and ComSoc has been struggling to
>be able to get to a budget that is zero based, rather than deficit, because
>the expenses for services such as conferences, members, publications, and
>things such as I mentioned above are higher than the income. Almost every
>program has had to be cut in order to manage to get to a zero base budget.
>
>Anyone who does not believe this is welcome to attend any BOG meeting to see
>the facts, and to see where the money comes from, and where it goes.
>
>It might look like there is a lot of money coming in, but please check the
>facts before making assumptions as to where it goes.
>
> Celia
>
>President, WorldClass - Telecommunications
>2007 IEEE Director and Secretary
>2006 IEEE VicePresident Technical Activities
>2002-2003 President IEEE Communications Society
>2001-2002 President IEEE Canada
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tccc-bounces@lists.cs.columbia.edu
>[mailto:tccc-bounces@lists.cs.columbia.edu] On Behalf Of habib@ccny.cuny.edu
>Sent: December-06-09 2:34 AM
>To: obazan@ee.ryerson.ca; Joe Touch
>Cc: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tccc] Cost of attendance from developing countries / in
>general
>
>I would like to remind you all that one of the main sources of income- and
>yes profit (lots of it)- to the IEEE is conferences. From experience, all
>ways to cutting-down costs will not really make a big difference in terms of
>what the IEEE charges you. In fact, I would argue that even if all events
>are cut-down attendees will still be charged at least US$500 or US$600 or
>more per person. This is to ensure a profit margin of at least 20% to 30% or
>even more per event.
>The IEEE will continue to utilize these events as a main source of
>profit-generating. The bigger the conference the higher is the profit.
>The IEEE does not care if you have a grant to pay for your registeration or
>not, or if you are coming from a poor country or not. They are in the
>business of making sure that their costs as an organization are covered and
>that they have profit. Non-for-profit status does not mean that they do not
>want profit. It gives them many advantages in terms of taxes liability,
>legal, finanical and adminstrative operations.
>So in summary, I do not think the IEEE will change the current mode of
>operation because it is proven to make them a good profit margin.
>To them, it really does not matter that we are suffering from these
>registeration fees as long as we continue to pay.
>
>Prof. Ibrahim Habib
>
>---- Original message ----
>>Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:48:24 -0500 (EST)
>>From: obazan@ee.ryerson.ca
>>Subject: Re: [Tccc] Cost of attendance from developing countries / in
>general
>>To: "Joe Touch" <touch@ISI.EDU>
>>Cc: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu
>>
>>I think the travel expenses represent the real burden. Unfunded graduate
>>students can find it impossible to pay for an air flight from a developing
>>country (Africa/Asia) to US, EU or Australia. This could cost more than
>>50% of the least possible expenses (IEEE student registration, no banquet,
>>2-stars hotel,..).
>>
>>With the IEEE no-show policy, those MASc./PhD students won't be able to
>>publish in major conferences.
>>
>>One solution would be a new registration category (online attendance)in
>>which the author can participate through online video conferencing. For
>>example, the author should be present online during his paper's session.
>>Moreover, a special 1-hr or 2-hr session could be organized in which
>>"online attendees" should be present online to communicate/network/answer
>>questions with interested "regular attendees" via video conferencing.
>>
>>Conference organizers can limit the "online attendance" registration to
>>specific countries /IEEE regions. However, it's worthy to note that not
>>every graduate student in developed countries' universities can get the
>>sufficient funds to attend conferences.
>>
>>-Osama.
>>
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miroslav Skoric wrote:
>>>> Ruay-Shiung Chang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please see the following Letter-to-the-editor in the October issue of
>>>>> IEEE
>>>>> Computer magazine.
>>>>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------
>>>>> To rectify the situation, conferences should be returned to university
>>>>> campuses where there are many classrooms that could be used as
>>>>> conference
>>>>> rooms. The professors and students could help organize and provide
>>>>> services
>>>>> for the conferences. Lodgings around universities typically are
>>>>> relatively
>>>>> inexpensive. It would be possible to reduce the budget for holding
>>>>> conferences and decrease the attendance fees.
>>>
>>> A few points on this:
>>>
>>> - - assuming this were viable, this would push all our conferences in the
>>> June - mid-August timeframe
>>>
>>>> In addition,
>>>> when lunches and/or conference banquets are provided (either included in
>>>> registration or offered for a small fee) within the campuses - the more
>>>> chances to feel academic lifestyle and mingle with students in a foreign
>>>> educational institution.
>>>
>>> - - you can't mingle with students and stay in their rooms at the same
>>> time. I.e., whenever the rooms are available, it's because the students
>>> are gone
>>>
>>> - - not only are the students gone, but many campus services shut down as
>>> a result. at universities homed in small towns (Cornell being one I have
>>> experience with), this shutdown spreads out to the surrounding town,
>>> i.e, some restaurants are closed
>>>
>>> The final point is that what universities contribute doesn't help the
>>> bottom line that much. Food still costs money, and dominates the overall
>>> fees. The only way to substantially reduce meeting costs is to:
>>>
>>> - do not provide lunch ($35-40/day)
>>> - do not provide breakfast ($25/day)
>>> - do not provide coffee breaks ($25/day)
>>> - do not provide a reception ($40-50)
>>> - do not provide a banquet ($80-100)
>>>
>>> Skip all these on a three day meeting and your overall costs will drop
>>> by $400 or so. Even if university costs drop *all* of these by 25%
>>> (which would be a lot, and would mean every event was at the
>>> university), that only saves $100.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
>>>
>>> iEYEARECAAYFAksaqHUACgkQE5f5cImnZruL/wCaAp7kzwvGYp0StrYsJeAFaqHD
>>> qSoAn3H5Y1SYjccgoRwEwpoTaeZ1CiHW
>>> =NS4r
>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tccc mailing list
>>> Tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu
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>>>
>>
>>
>>-----------
>>Osama Bazan, PhD
>>Post Doctoral Fellow
>>Electrical and Computer Engineering
>>Ryerson University
>>Toronto, Ontario, Canada
>>Phone: +1 416 979 5000 Ext. 4528
>>
>>
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