Re: [Tccc] Researcher position at (business) - posting

Hi Joe,

You wrote (full context in the email exchange below):

> However, I'd like to ask anyone who suggests this is reasonable to
also
> consider what the impact of opening up this list to commercial posts
would > be - both on this list, and on the IEEE as a whole. I don't know
the
> details of the previous decision, but consider, e.g., what you would
trade
> for such posts:
> - possibly increased dues
> - possibly increased conference fees
> - possibly increased list traffic

The impact on these three points is actually quite easy to consider.

Regarding conferences: they are not subsidized by ad money from IEEE job
postings. Conferences are paid by participants' fees and by corporate
sponsorship. One could argue that keeping businesses involved in the
TCCC community is a better approach with respect to sponsorship for TCCC
events and thus _lower_ conference fees.

With respect to dues: I open my current issue of IEEE Spectrum (where
IEEE sells ads for money). If I did not miss anything, I see in the back
pages 17 ads for open positions: 16 for academic or government jobs (14
university, 2 military) and ONE industrial ad (Juniper Networks). If I
look at the ACM Career web sites for PhD level jobs, there's about 5
academic positions for every industry job. So the main 'customer' for
IEEE for job ads is academia, which is allowed to post here without
restriction! If one were concerned about competition for TCCC for the
ads $$$, then one would ban faculty positions, not industry.

With respect to list traffic: industry positions have been historically
allowed on TCCC even after the current policies were established in
2002. For instance:
Narus Inc, March '09:
https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/tccc/2009-March/010820.html
SAP, October '07:
https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/tccc/2007-October/007032.html
Telefonica, December '08:
https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/tccc/2008-December/009900.html
Bell Labs, November '05:
https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/tccc/2005-November/003566.html
Intel Research, May '05:
https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/tccc/2005-May/002996.html
Docomo Europe, February '05:
https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/tccc/2005-February/002600.html

AFAICT, no one has objected to the list traffic created by these jobs
emails.
On the contrary, the overwhelming consensus of this discussion has been
to keep the interpretation of the mailing list guidelines as in the
past, and preserve this traffic.

Regards,

Cedric.

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 20:13:29 -0700
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tccc] Researcher position at (business) - posting
To: Ajay Kulkarni <ajay.kulkarni@student.utdallas.edu>
Cc: tccc@lists.cs.columbia.edu
Message-ID: <4C071DD9.5060502@isi.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi, Ajay,

Ajay Kulkarni wrote:
> Hi,
> I am a phd student and I have been a passive reader of this group. I
> think even though its not a policy of the mailing list, an exception
> should be made for jobs targeting students and fresh graduates to
apply
> (I think this job posting did that).
>
> Agreed IEEE is watching its bottomline but is there is a lack of
dialog
> upwards from the grassroots to the top management of IEEE.

FWIW, there has been no dialogue on this issue as yet since it has not
been
raised as a concern. I can raise it at the next meeting, which will be
in
December. Any member on this list is welcome to similarly raise it as
well - the
BoG meeting is supposed to be open.

However, I'd like to ask anyone who suggests this is reasonable to also
consider what the impact of opening up this list to commercial posts
would be - both on this list, and on the IEEE as a whole. I don't know
the details of the previous decision, but consider, e.g., what you would
trade for such posts:
- possibly increased dues
- possibly increased conference fees
- possibly increased list traffic

This is a trade-off. I'm not arguing in favor of the current decision;
I'm just
pointing out what the impact of a change *might* be. None of these
decisions -
lowering conference costs, allowing commercial posts - come without
impact.

...
> So my point is lets not get into the technicalities when it comes to
> such "student job posting". Whats the harm in changing the mailing
list
> rule to allow such postings targeted for students.

We are currently bound by IEEE ComSoc policy *until* that policy is
changed.

Joe

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